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Flying Mustang Forum

This page is for our thoughts, feelings, editorials, etc. A "sound off" to help keep others in our community informed and amused. So, if you have anything to share email: The Flying Mustangs. Be sure to include the word "forum" in your subject line.

John,

Here's the patch I had made. Feel free to post it on the website if you want and let me know if you want one. LT Allison Clark from VP-10 makes them. Her contact info is:

maacsmil@aol.com
www.maacs.com
1-866-667-3964

Received Tue, 5 Jun 2001 Email between CDR Roy Peterson and ENS Chris Reedy.
>
>Chris,
>
>You are right on track. I have worked for the last ten years with other
>CWO's and LDO's to make sure the paperwork was straight on our status as
>aeronautically designated officers. All AVOPS CWO/LDO's received a letter
>dated 1 Mar 1990 from Commander, Naval Military Personnel Command
>(N43C)stating that our ASED and ACD were corrected to match. We then all
>received back flight pay.
>
>The issue has always been finding sufficient DIFOPS orders to keep
>everyone's ACIP counters moving. We basically only have a handful of flying
>orders in VP and a few more scattered around the fleet, the loss of the VS
>billets really hurt us. So, with our folks no longer flying they were
>starting to miss their ACIP gates and some decided to request waivers...
>which led to Bupers taking a hard look at why we were getting ACIP in the
>first place... and then deciding to stop ACIP expect for those in a flying
>billet and those with NFO wings. Most of this information is second hand
>from the detailer, who is not a supporter of our having ACIP, but I feel
>it's pretty close to what is going on.
>
>Where do we go from here? This is a hard question, I would start by going
>to the ACIP desk at Bupers and asking the question of why this was
>changed... get it from the horses mouth. Then gather data, total cost of
>ACIP for our community, how many flying billets, etc., draft a point paper
>on why the Navy needs to continue ACIP for the AVOPS community. The point
>paper will then need to be sold to the LDO/CWO community manager, he will
>then need to be convinced this is an issue he needs to take on. Not having
>the aviation LDO/CWO community on our side will not help, read LDO Capt's
>and detailers. It is a bone of contention with the other former aircrewman
>why they don't get flight pay.
>
>Bottom line this will be an uphill battle that will not be easy. Please
>feel free to post this to the Flying LDO forum. I would appreciate those
>working this issue keep in touch with me so that we as a community are all
>working this together.
>
>One question have they stopped pay to anyone who already has an ASED? Say
>hello to Ron for me.
>
>CDR Peterson

>Subject: Flight Pay
>
>
>CDR Peterson,
> Let me start by introducing myself. My name is ENS Chris Reedy, 6322,
>USN, LDO. I am writing you this letter in hopes of clarifying weather or
>not I am entitled to receive flight pay as an officer. Currently I am
>stationed at FMP MOCC MIDPAC, Kaneohe Bay, HI. My partner in crime at the
>MOCC is CWO4 Ron Collins, who by the way sends his regards. I have been
>discussing this issue with Ron for some time and he and other LDO/CWO's
>within our community have suggested I contact you for guidance and or any
>amplifying information. I commissioned on 01 OCT 00 and checked into my
>current command under DIFDEN orders on 04 DEC OO. During my check-in
>process I asked PSD to initiate my flight pay. Here's the snag, PSD was
>unable to start my flight pay because my record didn't contain an Aviation
>Service Entry Date (ASED), which is the starting point for pay purposes. In
>February 2001, I contacted LCDR Kris Hancock and the ACIP goo-roo's at
>BUPERS for assistance. Kris and the ACIP desk informed me that I wasn't
>entitled to any flight pay since my orders were DIFDEN. They also informed
>me that the only way to establish an ASED date was to be ordered into a
>DIFOPS billet. They are using the NAVPERS 158391, VOL II, Officer Data
>Card, which states under Item 27, ASED is: "A MMDDYY, which applies only to
>aviation officers and indicates the beginning of an Officer's aviation
>career. It is used to measure Phase I years of aviation service. This is
>the date when the officer first reported to the activity having aircraft in
>which basic flight training was received." I tried to explain that their
>reference pertained to non designated officers who were in the flight
>training pipeline and that I was already an aeronautically designated
>Officer. I referenced the 3710.7, Para 11.2.2 which states 632x/732x's AV
>OPS/TECH's are aeronautically designated officers per the NAVPERS 158391.
>The NAVPERS instruction talks about DIFDEN billets that are coded 0, other
>than operational flying billets, which require an aeronautically designated
>officer. I interpret this to mean our ASED date should be based on our
>commissioning date, since the AV OPS/TECH designators are that of
>aeronautically designated officers. Following along this line of thinking,
>once you have the designator, your ASED date should be commensurate with the
>date you received the designation. Which, in the case of all 632X/732X's
>that is our commissioning date. I would be very appreciative if you could
>provide any further guidance or amplifying information that might help me
>out. On the other side of the coin, if I am 180 out on this line of
>thinking please let me know that also. Thanks in advance and Have a Fine
>Navy Day!
>
>Very Respectfully,
>Chris Reedy
>

Recieved:

This is a good site for all you "war heroes" to keep your ribbons/awards
straight. http://kepler.egr.duke.edu/FleetRibbons.html

You simply select your awards and the program places them in the
correct order.
V/R Danny Dobbins

Received 6 Aug 00

Subj: ldo/cwo conference final minutes

To all, this was forwarded to my by the OHO, some interesting reading.
Please pass it on.

Thanks
Bill Hewitt Thanks Bill!

Recieved 09 July 00

I recently received the complete Aviation LDO/CWO directory from Jeff Massey and broke it down into our community designators for ease of use. Thought it might be appropriate to post on your website for the benefit of all.
LDO/CWO Directory

Regards,
Chris Reedy

Thanks Chris!!

John,

I read where they are having trouble filling the OIC billet for FMP MOCC MED and that is a shame. It is only the most dynamic and operationally demanding billet we have, you can take my word for it, I was there! Being aboard a carrier doesn't even compare. The opportunity for professional growth and the chance to make a difference and build on to an already outstanding reputation for excellence and "can do" performance should make the OIC billet an easy choice for anyone. When you add the unique opportunity for your family to enjoy life abroad and travel throughtout europe how can you turn this down. My family thoroughly enjoyed living in Sicily and now with the new housing and base improvements (new school, hospital, exchange, commissary) it has even more to offer. It also has the best MWR program I have seen. My daughter graduated from high school
in Sigonella and now attends Texas A&M University and is doing extremely well, and my son is on the honor roll at Salem High School in Virginia Beach, so the school system isn't inferior. What more can you ask for, great place to live, warm wonderful people and climate, chance to travel throughout Europe, great wine and food, challenging job that stimulates and stretches you to your fullest. Just sending to you so you can get the word
out. Thanks.

Paul Homan

Thanks Paul. I couldn't agree more.

Received 8 June 00

How about posting a note on the "Flying Mustang." We just picked up our
fourth 6320 O-5! Pass my congratulations on to CDR (sel) Mark Schmitt.

CDR Roy Peterson

PS: He has a background that included MOCC OIC for the doubters who thought
you couldn't get there without NFO wings.

All for your info:

CDR Bill Cox, former XO NSA Souda Bay will be retiring after 35 years of service to his country on Thursday 27 April. If you would like to send on your wishes for "Fair Winds and Following Seas" I'm sure he would appreciate it. His e-mail address is: GreekHearts@aol.com

Please pass this on to your people who knew and worked with both CDR Cox and
Donna.

CDR Roy Peterson

22 March 00

Enclosed is a document requesting a change to OPNAVINST 10126.4B. Mike Headley drafted and submitted this request via his chain of command to CNO N88 in an attempt to correct the problem of 632X/732X designators not receiving flight jackets. A very sore subject for many/all in our community.

Mike, on behalf of all Flying Mustangs, thank you for all your efforts and hard work.

BZ!

John Miltenberger

This is in response to your question on ACIP and info for all. This is from my perspective and the conversations I have had with CDR Jeff Mackenzie (URL aviators Community Manager), LT Crozier, Capt Ruple (our community manager)and our detailer. Nothing has really changed on ACIP for the AVOPS community. LCDR Jim Daniels' request for a waiver stirred up a lot of questions and the folks at the bureau, but bottom line, we still have support to retain our Aeronautical Designation as a community (read ACIP). I'm not sure if the CWO ACIP issue is straight yet, but I don't think it's going to go the way it did for the Army Warrants. From the e-mails I have seen Jim was able to fix his ACIP issue while he was in Millington.

Where do we go from here, as I have been saying all along, each of us must:

1) Make sure your orders reflect the billet you are filling. (i.e., 6321 or 6322=DIFOPS; 6320=DIFDEN). The older LDO/CWO books showed the actually billet designator the new book does not. The detailer can't change the billet from DIFOPS to DIFDEN, that's a money/TYCOM issue. The detailer also may not write your orders DIFOPS if you are going to a DIFDEN billet... it's the law. To change the billets from 6320 to 6321/2 your command would have to submit a request to change it and the Tycom would have to submit the
Total Force Manpower Management System (TFMMS)package. This is the bureau definition: "TFMMS is an Information System (IS) designed to support the DCNO (M&P) (N1). To satisfy this mission, TFMMS provides a single authoritative source for manpower data, and the ability to track manpower resources, requirements and authorizations, for active military (officer and enlisted), reserves, civilians, contractors, and other categories of manpower. It provides mechanism to store and retrieve all Manpower Types. Provides storage and retrieval of historical, current, budget, and out-year manpower data. TFMMS provides on-line access to current manpower data for resource sponsors, claimants, suclaimants, and others and provides storage and retrieval of transaction history."

2) Get your NAO wings, when the opportunity presents itself. It's an officer set of wings and gives you and the community more creditablity when we say we are aeronautically designated.

3) Make your flight gates and track it on your ODC. Read and understand what the MOF and Gates mean, before you find out you missed them and lose money. I believe I posted this information on the "Flying Mustang" last February.

4) Don't expect waivers that aren't provided to the URL community. We want to be treated on an equal basis, not as special cases.

5) For those in the NFO program; you are no different then the rest... you must still make all of your ACIP gates; track it.

6) Pass the word to the new commissions and those interested in the program. Please post to the "Flying Mustang and feel free to forward this e-mail.

The message to announce the FY-01 NFO selection board should be out very soon, per a conversation I just had with Kris Hancock.

Please pass on my congratulations to this year's crop of new LDO's and CWO's.

Keep flying,
Roy Peterson
CDR USN

25 Feb 00

Below are some email that have been forwarded to the Flying Mustangs. They are just a snippet of the email that has been generated by the ACIP issue. If you have not heard, our ACIP is being looked at very critically right now and we are starting to be held to the letter of the law. In doing so, a number us may find that we are no longer eligible for ACIP. LCDR Jim Daniels has been working the issue and wanted to make sure all were informed and had the ammo they may need to defend their ACIP. From all ...thanks Jim!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25 Feb 00

As the instruction states you need a minimum of 72 MOF in order to submit a waiver. You need 96 MOF in the first 12 years (gate) in order to continue receiving ACIP. If you have 72 MOF and not the required 96 you can submit a waiver. Your time at HS-10 will count
whether it says DIFOPS or not. I explained that to LT Crozier. All my orders to CV/CVN were changed when I got onboard, to DIFOPS by the OPS people. That is something everyone needs to be aware of now since Kris Hancock is being told not to issue DIFOPS to us anymore. We need to get the word out because DIFOPS is the MOF savior for us during disassociated tours. I got credit, month-for-month, because I had DIFOP orders to the CV/CVN. If you have the 72 MOF submit the waiver to LT Crozier. Email him at p432d@persnet.navy.mil or call dsn: 882-3969 or comm: 901-874-3969 for specifics (email works best for those guys at BUPERS. He'll pull your record up right there and tell
you what you have going.

The waiver is easy and I attached an example. On this example I received 104 hrs MOF so I would not be required to receive a waiver. I met my 12 year gate because of the DIFOP orders to the carriers which account month-for-month for flying time.

Let me know what happens and spread the wealth.

LCDR Jim Daniels
DSN: 492-6249

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

24 Feb 00

I just returned from the LDO/CWO Board and it was a great experience. I advise it for anyone interested along with the CPO Selection Board.

Attached is the memo I have faxed to LT Brett Crozier today with regards to ACIP (also 11 pages of earlier documentation on ACIP). I visited him while in Millington and had my ODC straightened out to give me 96 MOF for my 12 yr gate. My shipboard time under DIFOP
orders accounted month-for-month as flying time towards my gates, so the two carrier tours earlier in my career were worth the time.

Problem is LT Chris Hancock was instructed not to write DIFOP orders for our disassociated sea tours anymore. I'm trying, in my memo to LT Crozier, to find out why. This takes away our MOF while in those disassociated tours. Big negative for MOF accumulation.

What we need to get out to the community is that there may be a change to the instructions governing ACIP. Hopefully, whatever changes they initiate only affect future gains and not those Mustangs who have been receiving ACIP in the past. From what I understand some CWO (732X) in Rota or KEF had his PSD change his ACIP to $850 because of the change affecting Army Flying Warrants. He is receiving his $850 and so are some other CWO's in our community but it raised a red flag at BUPERS, when the questions started coming in, as to the eligibility of the warrants. Now we are seeing the results. When I submitted my request for a waiver in January, LT Crozier said that I was not eligible for ACIP and should never have been receiving it. After I briefed him in Millington and showed him my paperwork designating me an NAO and eligible to receive ACIP, he was surprised to know our designators were this involved in the ACIP process. He is going forth with my paperwork and some other 1989-1991 paperwork I submitted (faxed today) to him, which addresses the earlier requests and subsequent approval for ACIP within our designators.

I'm sure more is to follow but the bottom line is that everyone receiving ACIP should cover their six by having the proper paperwork documenting their designation as a NAO and/or eligiblity to receive ACIP. This will become more important after a decision is made by BUPERS and the bubbas in Washington, DC regarding the fate of ACIP and our designators.

I'm standing by for LT Crozier's reply and will keep you informed. As always, anything you or anyone else has to add, pls forward. This support needs to be a community effort and not just one case at a time.

V/R,

LCDR Jim Daniels
DSN: 492-6249

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cal,

I tried to email you when I was in Millington but got a not a good address note back. Hopefully, this gets to you.

I never claimed to be an "expert" on all this BS so you'll never hurt my feelings or step on my toes if you correct what I say. Bottom line is we need a joint effort in squaring this away. I'm good to go because my shipboard tours were DIFOPS (don't ask me how but thank God for very understandable OPS bubbas) and my MOF were accounted for because of the DIFOP orders during two disassociated sea duty tours. Going to sea did pay off.

I'm not real clear on the 632X/732X or 6320/7320 BS but it seems to me that they should all be flying billets if we are to receive ACIP and have to meet our gates. Maybe this is where our efforts should go. LT Brett Crozier, the ACIP bubba at PERS, who by the way is neutral and very helpful, is the man who needs our input. If they start to change things, we need to have input and he will be the one making the changes or assisting. We can influence him, in a positive manner, to get things the way we need them, hopefully. We have to have our !@#$ together in order to do this. I'm getting John Miltenberger to update the Flying Mustang Webpage with all correspondance regarding ACIP. I don't want to see any changes that may be made, affect anyone who has been receiving ACIP
(grandfathered). If they want to change the rules, let it affect personnel in the future. Not that I want it to have a negative impact on the community but, I remembered when I commissioned that I lost money so I went and got qualified as a Technical Observer and received $110 a month for flying. This is another route personnel can take if ACIP does go away in the future. It was during this time that I was notified that I was eligible to receive ACIP. Seems like we are going to have to justify our existence again.

If you think the billet codes and designators are pretty self-explanatory and good the way they are in our designator, than we don't agree. I think all our billet codes should be all flying billets period (DIFOPS) whether disassociated tours or not. We are eligible for ACIP as designated naval aviators and we should be treated like Pilots and NFO's and not have to jump through these, "which is a flying billet, which is DIFOPS/DIFDEN" hoops. Keep in touch Cal and lets get this mess straightened out.

Jim Daniels
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim,

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you and would love to see all of our billets changed to DIFOPS. Be aware, however, that 1310s and 1320s have DIFDEN billets, also. My understanding is that there are only so many DIFOPS billets funded and the rest are DIFDEN. It always comes back to money. I realize that it makes it difficult to meet gates. Hopefully, at a minimum, the CV billets could be made DIFOPS (6321/2, 7321/2) so the guys taking the hard jobs could at least get that benefit. That's assuming they don't shoot us down completely from ACIP.

Look forward to hearing from you. v/r Cal Kelso

5 Jan 00

Greetings all
The AW Memorial Wall, in honor of all fallen AW's, will be dedicated February
10th at 1000. The location will be the AW "A" School in Pensacola, FL. I am
cordially inviting many of the shipmates I have served with over the years to
come and see this moving tribute to the aircrew who gave their lives. AWCM
McGiff will be the guest speaker (I quess I had better notify him). I am
contacting and inviting ALL AW's, past and present to attend and anyone else
who would like to attend are welcome. If you can make it, please contact me
so I can plan accordingly.

The "Wall" was researched and handcrafted by AWCS "Devo" Devarney and AWCS
Tim Hannish. It is beautiful and will bring a lump to your throat and a tear
to your eye when you see it. If you can't make it for the dedication, feel
free to drop in anytime you are in town, our doors are always open to those
who have been there before..

To contact me;
DSN 922-7336
COMM (850) 452-7336

V/R

AWCS Tony DiCenso

16 Dec 99
I just wanted to take this opportunity to wish you and your families a:

Take care and keep in touch.

John Miltenberger

Received 3 Nov 99

LEATHER FLIGHT JACKETS:

I called the Leather Flight Jacket office in Pensacola about the issue, and
they confirmed the current Navy policy and instruction. They are adamant
about enforcing the instruction to the letter and rightly so how many time
have we seen people wearing flight jackets that didn't rate them.

Our issue is that 632X/732X officers are aeronautically designated from date
of commissioning, are on DIFOPS/DIFDEN orders, and absolutely rate a leather
flight jacket.

I spoke with CDR Jeff MacKenzie yesterday, he is the Aviation Officer
Community Manager (Pers N131V) and a community friend. He did a lot to help
us reestablish the LDO/CWO NFO program and is very familiar with our
community. He has promised to take a look at the flight jacket instruction
and will see will do what he can do to fix it or at least provide guidance.
I should hear something next week.

In the meantime my gut feeling is we are going to have to submit a letter to
change the OPNAVINST 10126.4B. I don't have a dog in the fight, so it would
be more appropriate for a command with a CWO in a worn-out flight jacket to
initiate the letter. If your command (read you)would like to take it for
action, it needs to be on letterhead from your CO via your chain of command
(with endorsements), to CNO N88 and N412.

You will need to establish that all 632X/732X Officers are aeronautically
designated on the day of commissioning. Secnavinst 7220.1 used to do that
but it has been cancelled. You will need to track down the new ACIP
instruction, and also reference the OPNAV 3710.7R and the NAVPERS 158391
which also talk to our flying requirements.

It will be an uphill battle but if we don't ask the question, we can't fix
the problem.

Take a look at you flight jacket if it's worn out, start a letter up the
chain. Multiple letters won't hurt and will help establish the fleet's
stand on it.

CWO FLIGHT PAY

I also spoke to CDR MacKenzie about the flight pay issue. He has been
getting alot of questions from the DFAS folks about CWO flight pay. He
seems to agree with Chuck Jensen that you don't want to spend that extra
flight pay money yet, because it looks like they with be clarifying the
instructions to say that for 732X CWO's Aviation Commissioning Date (ACD)and
Aviation Service Entry Date (ASED) are the same. Bottom line I wouldn't
expect a windfall of flight pay, but the jury is still out.

Keep flying,
Roy Peterson
CDR USN

Received 26 Oct 99

After reading CDR Peterson's request for someone to research CWO ACIP, I was compelled to pass on information to my fellow flying mustangs about what I know about this pay issue to date.

First some background, back in April 99 CDR Peterson visited a medium size forum of NAS Jax AV OPS mustangs to field any burning issues that may need addressing in our community, in addition to educating potential mustang to NFO candidates who might have questions concerning the program. Anyway the CWO ACIP pay increase issue came up (I was late for the meeting), and being one of the few CWO's present the egg was on my face for complaining about my minuscule $206 Flt pay, not knowing the forum had previously discussed the CWO's newfound windfall of pay. With that info I went (okay ran) to disbursing to begin collecting my big bucks. NOT SO FAST!!!

Okay...,first of all, the law has in fact changed. But, that whole thing that it effects only CWO's is not true. If the law is rewritten to correct the verbiage that I have pointed out to the ACIP desk then all AV OPS fliers pay could increase, depending on when your aviation service date went into effect (i.e. when you started flying as an ADUB). BUT...keep in mind that the current law as it is written and understood by the ACIP desk TODAY does not allow for any pay increase outside of the current allocated amounts for commissioned aviation service!! Reference MPA 1-99 at your disbursing office.

The bottom line is, I have done some thorough research, mostly to protect myself from over payment. It would be very premature to attempt to collect this money, because frankly the ACIP desk is doing the research and talking to the Policy and Military Compensation folks (lawyers) in N13 as we speak. Also, to validate my argument with the AIP desk we discussed designators, so if any of you are collecting on this you might not want to spend the money because the ACIP folks may ask for it back. The disbursing officers in the field seem to have a different twist, and may see the pay change in your favor. Be patient, if it is meant to be it will happen. If you're in doubt of my research read the ACIP law and MPA 1-99. $700 or so collected over a year is allot of money to payback!! Don't bank on blaming it on disbursing and having the payback waved, the last bunch of indebtedness messages I've read here at VP-30 have been brutal out of Cleveland!!(disapproved)

For anyone who would like the in the weeds version feel free to call me.

CWO3 Chuck "Da Wo" Jensen
VP-30 Training, ISD Division Officer
DSN 942-8270 email: cjensen@fair.net

10/24/99
For the forum

Hello from sunny Souda Bay, boy do I love this job. Now I understand
why CDR Bill Cox didn't want to leave!

It's been pretty quiet for our community of late or at least no one is
talking (or complaining) to me. I still haven't heard from any of our
CWO's about the change in the law for their flight pay. CWO's, if you
haven't seen a jump in your flight pay you might want to swing by
disbursing and ask about the changes in the law for flying warrant
officers. I'd appreciate someone taking the time to research it and
post their findings on the forum.

No word on the next NFO selection board yet. I know LCDR Kris Hancock
was working the message and wanted to do it at the end of the In-service
procurement board. If you are going to be applying this year, you might
give him a call and ask the status of the ALNAV.

For info my new e-mail address is:
petersonr@souda.navy.mil

My phone numbers are:
DSN: 312-266-1232
Comm: (from US) 011-30-821-66200 ext.1232
Home: 011-30-821-69071
(time difference is 7 hours earlier than the east coast)

The following are proposed zones and promotion opportunities for FY-01
CDR/CAPT. Please be advised these are just working figures being kicked
around at Bupers, the offical zones will come out by message.

O-5
Pick 50 of 83 at 60%
SIZ: LCDR TRAXLER 02545040
JIZ: LCDR KLING 02574320
JEL: LCDR LARSON 02621875

0-6
Pick 4 of 13 at 30%
SIZ: CDR BLAKLEY 00817725
JIZ: CDR BUTLER 00826470
JEL: CDR FAIR 00850455

Keep flying,
Roy Peterson
CDR USN

The CNO's leather flight jacket policy specifically leaves out warrants and LDOs. Does any one know of an effort to correct this oversight?

Michael Headley

30 July 99

An HSL experienced LDO/CWO to work in the HSLWINGLANT Weapons Tactics Unit (WTU) in Mayport, Florida. This is not an LDO/CWO billet. The job is currently being filled by LTJG Huntington who is leaving in SEP'99. He is assigned to HSL-40 as the AIRLANT DET SAR evaluator (an 1100 series billet.) Duties include managing the Advanced Readiness Program (ARP), USW and TAC D&E Officer, and evaluating all tactical and weapons exercises (AUTEC). The CO of HSL-40 (Capt. Bagby) and the Wing Commodore (Capt. Hoffman) are aggressively seeking an HSL experienced LDO/CWO to work in the WTU. They will work with the detailers and placement officers to get you here if you are interested and have a workable PRD. An AMD change request has been submitted to permanently convert a local billet to an AW LDO/CWO billet. Please contact LTJG Huntington if interested. DSN 960-6631. E-mail address listed in the Flying Mustang address book.

22 July 1999

For the forum:

You might want to get a copy of the Navy Times story on the LDO/CWO
NFO's in the 29 July issue. They interviewed me and didn't screw the
facts up too bad.

Congratulations to our 7321 FY-00, CWO-4 selects: Dan Gagnon, Skip
Bailey, John Sequin, & Ron Collins

and to our 7321 CWO-3 selects: Mike Headley, & Jim Whetzel

Of note, it looks like opportunity for above zone selections has
improved. There were four aviation CWO-4's and eight CWO-3's selected
above zone this year. So if you weren't on the list don't get
discouraged, keep strokin', your odds are looking better than ever for
selection on the second look.

Great job guys,

Roy Peterson
CDR USN

We at the Flying Mustangs would like to say,

Congratulation to Jim Daniels
on his recent promotion to LCDR.

Jim had a wonderful ceremony followed by the best Luau that FCTCLANT Dam Neck has ever seen.
Congrat's again Jim, and thanks for the great time!

---

Received 4/12/99

AVOPS LDO/CWO NFO PROGRAM INFORMATION

My fellow Flying Mustangs,

Since the NFO program is now open to AVOPS LDO/CWO's, I went to visit the curriculum manager at the Aviation Preflight Indoctrination (API) course at Naval Aviation Schools Command (NASC), NAS Pensacola. I got some gouge on their Course of Instruction that I wanted to share with all of you. For any of you interested in applying for the program this is what you have to look forward too - if selected.

The API course is approximately 6-7 weeks (31 days of instruction) and is for Pilots/NFO's of all branches (USN, USMC, USAF - not sure if USCG or USA attend) and several foreign military's. The school is here at NAS Pensacola, Building 633 - same building as Mustang "U" but, at the other end of the building. I think classes start every 2 weeks with up to 55-60 students per class. The course attrition rate is about 10% - sorry, no breakdown of academic vs. non-academic drops. There are 5 major phases of the course plus screening.

· 1) Screening - Week 1 - NOMI flight physical, uniform inspection, PRT, swim screening. API PRT standards are higher than Navy PRT standards, I didn't get the exact gouge on these requirements but, they are designed to be tough for the younger students. Be prepared!
· 2) Aerodynamics & Weather (+ Weather Final) - Week 1&2 - The instructors said aerodynamics was academically the tougher part of the course.
· 3) Engines & NAV (+ Aerodynamics & Engines Final) - Week 3. Sorry folks, but, the mile swim is done during this week (in 80 minutes)!
· 4) Flight Rules and Regulations (+ FRR & NAV Final) - Week 4.
· 5) ILST - Week 5 - This is land survival, NP-1 Physiology/Low Pressure Chamber, all devices (including dunkers). Yes, you will have to do everything again even if your quals are up to date.
· Dunkers & Bay Operations - Week 6 - Graduate if not setback for any portion of course.

This schedule is condensed, there are multiple other requirements and test. This just
gives a basic idea of the time-line and requirements. Aside from the academics, the course seems to be much like Aircrew School.

I don't have any info on the curriculum at VT-10 or the Air Navigation course at Randolph AFB in San Antonio. If any of you have the gouge on these courses, please share it with all the Flying Mustangs. Also, I did get a copy of API's Training Course Control Document (TCCD) which gives a more detailed description of lesson topics. If you need to know more, or want info about the Pensacola area, please call me.

LT Billy Burch
AW "A" School
COML: (850) 452-7336
DSN: 922-7336

Received 3/19/99

"Below are a few thoughts I wanted to share with our fellow Flying
Mustangs." - Billy Burch

First of all, congratulations to our newest "Flying Mustangs" from
FY-00 and the alternates from FY-99! Each of you will most certainly
find the transition exciting and your future jobs to be challenging,
and hopefully loads of fun. Although its been a few years for some of
us, I'm sure we all remember in great detail when we were notified of
our selection... For me, it ranked right up there with my marriage,
birth of my children, first flight in the RAG, and first on-top of a
real sub. The selection of our newest Mustangs has given me the
chance to think of my past and "remember where I came from."

A few days ago I got the chance to attend a luncheon for some of
the Mustang selectee's in my command. We had several LDO's and
Warrant's in attendance with each expected to give some advice to the
new Mustangs. Each "old salt" gave very good and sound advice ranging
from A (attitude) to Z (zeal). Then it was my chance to pass on some
advice. I hadn't really given much thought as to what advice I could
give that had a chance of really making an impact on our newest
Mustangs. So, I improvised! I thought back on the advice I received
from the "old salt's" when I was selected and could only remember one
thing... I was told repeatedly, until I felt the urge to puke, "DON'T
FORGET WHERE YOU CAME FROM!"

Those words have been very good advice for myself and every Mustang
before and since. But, there is more to being a Mustang than
remembering where you've come from. I had to give our newest Mustangs
better advice than just that single phrase, "DON'T FORGET WHERE YOU
CAME FROM." Well, I did give them more advice than that single phrase
and I felt it should also be shared with our newest - as well as
current - "Flying Mustang's." Get your pencil and paper ready cause
here it comes.

Number one..."DON' T FORGET WHERE YOU CAME FROM." Certainly, most
won't unless they were dropped on their head as children. We all got
to spend a large portion of our career in the enlisted ranks and
remember the experiences, good and bad, well enough. Been
there...done that! Been there...smart enough not to do that! Been
there...my LDO, Warrant, or Chief was smart enough not to let me do
that! Yes, it would be hard to forget where we came from. The bottom
line: The vast majority of us have not forgotten where we've come from
and I'm sure our newest crop of selectee's won't forget either.
However, I would like to add two more bits of advice that I hope will
make some impact.

Number two..."DON'T FORGET WHERE YOU ARE NOW." Once commissioned
it becomes a whole new ballgame. Your no longer a part of the Chiefs
goat locker or First Class mess. Now you hangout in the wardroom,
attend AOM's, hide in your stateroom or in the "Q." But, there is a
very real problem each new mustang has had to face - most of our
friends, our shipmates, are still in the enlisted ranks.
Fraternization... This is a scary word to most Mustang's, because we
have had to deal with it at some time in our career's. I don't want
to harp on this issue but, think about how you actions, or lack of
action, will be perceived or interpreted before you act. You are now
an Officer in the wardroom and have to adjust and fit in with your
fellow Officers. The sooner you transition, the better for you, and
the entire wardroom. While you are not a Junior Officer, you
certainly are (or soon will be) an Officer. Therefore, it is
imperative that you integrate with the wardroom, support and advise -
not compete with - your new shipmates (Officers), and use all of your
past, as well as current, experiences and qualifications to assist the
Commanding Officer in making your command the best. That is one of
the many reasons for your being in that Mustang billet. The bottom
line: Don't forget where you are and why you are there.

Number three..."DON'T FORGET WHERE YOU ARE GOING." Whether you
want to do your obligation and then retire or you want to make it all
the way to 0-6 or W-4 (W-5?), you will need to have a relief before
moving on. Now, I'm not talking about a relief for your billet that
you must do a turnover with, I'm talking about a relief within the
Mustang community as a whole. Personally, I had a couple of LDO's and
CWO's help me with my career progression and several LDO packages.
They have since promoted or retired and in a sense I feel that I am
"their relief." Eventually, myself and all other Mustang's will move
up or out and our recent selectee's will be our relief's. I encourage
each Mustang, present and future, to get out there and recruit a
relief - a new Mustang for the FY-01 and later selection boards. They
are just waiting to be discovered, encouraged, molded, and helped. We
just have to do it, and of course, none can help more than those just
selected. Each new selectee has "just been there" and "just done
that," so, when you new Mustang's get to your new command, start
looking for and training a relief. The bottom line: Don't forget
where you are going and make sure you have a relief - "just do it."

I received help from Mustang's in getting selected as a Mustang,
and I've received help from my fellow Mustangs along the way. I
haven't forgotten where I've come from, where I'm at now, or where I'm
going. If any of you need help, advice, or maybe just someone that
will listen, myself and every other Mustang is here for you. Again,
congratulations to our newest "Flying Mustangs" and welcome to the
wardroom.


LT Billy Burch
NATTC Pensacola
AW "A" School
(808) 452-7336
DSN: 922-7336

"The future of ASW has no easy answers"
by
Robert M. Huntington

Anti-submarine warfare is hard. Ask anyone who has ever done it, it's the ultimate chess game that will test your limits of patience and skill at every turn. It is probably one of the least glamorous of naval warfare mission areas as well. You don't see Hollywood film directors lining up to make movies about sonobuoy patterns and RADAR search patterns. Robert Holzer's Defense Trends article in Navy Times "Johnson: Post-Cold War anti-sub warfare neglected (Navy Times, August 17, 1998), talks about the CNO's renewed interest in ASW and his white paper on the subject titled "1998 ASW Focus Statement." The article goes on to discuss the CNO's excitement over communication advances and network-centric warfare concepts. This is fine and dandy if you have a defense budget that can fully support such technological wonders. But I think the CNO's white paper and Mr. Holzer's article are missing the mark. Like I said before, ASW is hard. Among other things, it doesn't fit into nice and neat CVN strike packages, it doesn't conform to aircraft carrier cyclic ops, and it is not a warfare area that can be scripted into COMPTUEX and JTFEX training scenarios. To prepare for and defeat the modern, diesel submarine threats of today will take more than "Computer Technology" and "Modern Sensors." These are not the panacea they seem. Quite simply, ASW is an extremely perishable skill that must be given the same importance and asset allocation as any of our other naval warfare mission areas. But more than anything else, more than new equipment and new aircraft, ASW takes practice. Not the most glamorous of Naval terms, but very necessary. During the Cold War, ASW crews practiced night and day. The Navy provided the assets, the time, the sonobuoy allocations, and the importance on preparing our ASW crews to detect, localize, track and attack any submarine, anywhere. And we were good at it. We deployed to the North Atlantic and the Azores, we deployed to the Sea of Japan and the Indian Ocean, we deployed to every possible location in the world where enemy submarines lurked below the ocean depths. Since then, the all too familiar story of decreased budgets and diminished threats seem to be used as an excuse for everything these days. A cursory inspection of foreign navy submarine proliferation raises some questions about our Navy's current weapons systems priorities and our ability to conduct ASW in littoral regions such as the Arabian Gulf. Mr. Holzer is quoted as saying, "No Navy can challenge the U.S. Navy in open-ocean antisubmarine warfare". But is this true? How many ASW crews in the VP/VS/HSL/HS communities have contact time on foreign navy submarines? Not many. In fact, it is not uncommon to find ASW crews whose only contact time is against a mobile target or U.S. submarine during pre-deployment work-ups. This is contact time of a very limited nature and during short duration, scripted training scenarios with known target locations.
So, what do we do now? For starters, let's afford our ASW crews more time to PRACTICE. Let's give them sufficient sonobuoy allocations and unscripted training scenarios so they can PRACTICE. Many people will argue that the political-military will of the foreign countries that are rapidly acquiring submarines don't pose a significant threat to our national security. This may be true for now, but for how long can we let one of the most lethal and capable weapons go unchecked? Third world countries everywhere are not buying state of the art fighters to counter our F/A-18 Hornet. They are not purchasing modern warships to combat our Arleigh Burke DDG's. They are buying submarines, modern, diesel electric submarines that can lie in wait for days at a time, waiting patiently, quietly, for that one opportunity to shoot a torpedo at an unsuspecting merchant ship or super tanker. And when this time comes, everyone around the world will realize once again how terrible an undetected submarine used in anger can truly be. Do we really want to wait for such a scenario to develop?

LTJG Huntington is a Sensor Operator and Limited Duty Officer assigned to the "Topcats" of VS-31. He is currently deployed on USS John C. Stennis (CVN-74) for JTG 98-2. He has been flying in ASW aircraft for more than 17 years.

LTJG Robert M. Huntington
VS-31 Unit 60134
FPO AA 34099-6507
Phone (Home): 904 246-4809
E-Mail: huntingr@stennis.navy.mil
chunting@bellsouth.net

navylet@atpco.com

"HSL in the 21st century"

It's an exciting and challenging time to be in the HSL community. After a recent deployment to the Arabian Gulf on the USS John C. Stennis (CVN-74) and Carrier Air Wing SEVEN, I had the opportunity to see first hand how Naval Aviation is changing and how the HSL community can benefit from these changes. It should be no surprise to anyone that carrier aviation is re-defining its role as a Strike Warfare platform. The days of multiple aircraft types and the ability to carry out multiple missions will soon be gone. As evidenced by the restructuring of the S-3B community, and the elimination of the ES-3A community, it is clear to see that the sea control missions of SUW and USW will have to be performed by assets other than CVN based aircraft. Without question, the pouncer zone surrounding the CVN is one of the most vital areas needing protection from hostile seaborne forces. Despite the efforts and dedication of SSN and VP assets in the Direct Support role and towed array equipped surface ships, the pace of modern, diesel submarine proliferation by almost every developed nation, poses an incredibly dangerous risk to our naval forces. The increasing number of diesel submarines and the tactical effectiveness of small boats in the littoral, promise to challenge our abilities and effectiveness as a dominant sea control naval power in the 21st century. Despite the changes to carrier aviation and the increased threat of littoral naval forces, come some exciting challenges for HSL. With the loss of a dedicated airborne USW asset, the carrier will need to rely more and more on the capabilities and technology of the SH-60B/R. In order to meet the challenges that lie ahead, the HSL community must become more focused and committed to tactical excellence and weapon system employment.
Enter the "Wing Training Unit" or WTU. This newly formed organization is exactly what the community needs. A small, efficient group of fleet experienced pilots and aircrewmen who can provide the same level of tactical knowledge and expertise as instructors in similar commands such as Top Gun under the Naval Strike and Warfare Center (NSAWC) In Fallon, Nevada.
My experience in HSL squadrons, and at Sea-Based Weapons and Advanced Tactics School, Pacific (SWATS), has forged some pretty strong opinions about how I think the HSL community needs to approach the WTU and its implementation into the Air Combat Training Continuum (ACTC). Listed below are some thoughts and ideas that I hope will spark some creativity and discussion among the officer and enlisted leadership in the LAMPS community. In addition to these ideas, I feel it is important to recognize the efforts and dedication of the pilots and aircrewmen on both coasts, who are very busy standing up the WTU's. Here are my thoughts:

1. We must send our brightest and best people to staff the WTU. These individuals, both officer and enlisted, need to be fully qualified Navy instructors. These billets cannot be a dumping ground for personnel who have failed to select for promotion, are awaiting transition to the civilian world, or folks who just need a convenient set of shore duty orders. I have personally witnessed the lack of credibility some commands have had to endure from the fleet by focusing on "filling a billet" rather than waiting for quality personnel.

2. The WTU needs to be a flying billet. We won't attract our best people if they can't fly and maintain their qualifications. It's also a credibility issue. The WTU instructors have to stay NATOPS current and maintain the same mission qualifications as the fleet professionals they are teaching.

3. The WTU curriculum should be accurate, current, relevant and adaptable to the fleet. A modular approach that tailors certain "core" lessons along with certain "elective" lessons selected by the detachments would provide training for those regions of the world where detachments are deploying. This would not only satisfy the requirement for quality, pre-deployment training, but would offer an opportunity to select certain lesson topics that appeal to the detachment and host squadron.

4. A required reading list should be published prior to every WTU class. This would help prepare detachments for their advanced training and identify the requisite knowledge needed before attending the WTU curriculum. Additionally, a pre-test should be administered to measure the baseline knowledge and skill level of the class. A minimum passing score would be mandatory and students who didn't achieve the minimum passing score, would return to their squadron. This would not prevent the detachment from deploying, but would reduce its chances of being awarded the HSL tactical designation.

5. As part of the WTU curriculum and the ACTC, HSL detachments that demonstrate a certain level of academic and tactical expertise will be awarded a special tactical designation that will signify the qualification level and operational capability of the detachment. This special designation will become a part of their official detachment mailing address and message PLAD. The Marine Corps has used this concept very successfully by designating its Marine Expeditionary Units or MEU's as (SOC) or "Special Operations Capable." During their pre-deployment training, these MEU's work aggressively towards earning this designation. Needless to say, a Marine Expeditionary Unit that doesn't earn the coveted "SOC" designation deploys without the trust and confidence that comes with it. Some examples of HSL designations that could be used include: TOC-Tactical Operations Capable, MOC-Maritime Operations Capable, SCC-Sea Control Capable, AOC-All Operations Capable. This tactical designation would signify a paradigm shift to all warfare communities that the LAMPS MK III platform is no longer a "pick-up truck" to be used for spur of the moment logistics runs, nor a "Jack of all Trades, Master of None" aircraft, but rather a highly capable, tactical air asset which can meet the demanding missions of the 21st century.

6. The WTU must be both receptive and supportive to the FLEET. They must avoid teaching what they think is important and remain focused on the missions actually being performed by deployed detachments. Mission areas such as CSAR should be avoided due to the unlikely probability that LAMPS crews will be called upon to perform such a mission.

7. Lastly, HSL must be able to integrate effectively with other air assets. With fewer carrier-based assets to perform sea control missions, and the limited availability of MPA assets, LAMPS detachments are well positioned to offer a potent and effective air to surface missile and coordinated strike capability against seaborne threats.

I realize some of these ideas in form or another are already being employed by the WTU's. Hopefully, I have listed some new ones and reinforced some old ones.
The LAMPS MK III community is standing at a crossroads in Naval Aviation history. By incorporating some of the ideas listed above, we can help create and maintain one of the most effective and dynamic programs ever seen. There are lots of you out there that can help make the WTU and ACTC concept work. Contact your WTU and type wing and let them hear from you.

LTJG Robert M. Huntington is a Limited Duty Officer and Sensor Operator with more than 17 years and 3500 hundred flight hours of experience. He has served in both the LAMPS MK I and MK III communities as is currently assigned as the USW and Aircrew Division officer at VS-31 flying in the S-3B Viking.

VS-31 Unit 60134
FPO AA 34099-6507
DSN 942-8280/81
COM (904) 542-8280/81
E-MAIL chunting@bellsouth.net

Received 9/24/98

Today,25 Sep 98.at 17:17 PST , LT Laurence G. Anderson a brilliant Naval Officer and AW LDO of legendary proportions within the VS community passed away....due to complications brought on by his long and heroic battle against the leukemia that held him captive for the last two years. Larry was surrounded by family, friends, and squadron mates during his final hours. The Shamrocks of VS-41 will hold a memorial service in his honor sometime this coming week at NAS North Island.

Brian Kenney

From myself, and all of the Flying Mustang's, we wish Laurence Anderson fair winds and following seas. To Laurence's family and friends we send our heartfelt condolences.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT!

General:Military
Sailor Kills Eight Crew Members on Russian Submarine MOSCOW (AP) -- A 19-year-old sailor on a Russian nuclear submarine stole a machine gun and shot eight crewmen to death before barricading himself in the vessel's torpedo section at a northern port, officials said today. Alexander Kuzminykh, a draftee who's been in the navy since last year, went on a shooting spree overnight on the vessel in Severomorsk, near the northern city of Murmansk, the Defense Ministry said in a statement. Eight sailors were dead and the standoff was continuing. The submarine was of the Bars class, a nuclear-powered fleet submarine normally armed with nuclear cruise missiles and torpedoes, navy officials said. There were no missiles on the submarine because it was in port. Still, the torpedo compartment where Kuzminykh was holed up did contain conventional explosives, the Interfax Link of the Dnews agency reported. The shooting rampage began when Kuzminykh seized a machine gun from a guard, killing him and then fatally shooting seven more crew members, the Defense Ministry said. The account gave no word on what might have prompted his actions. However, the Interfax news agency said Kuzminykh had been in detention on disciplinary charges when he seized the weapon. The commander of the Russian navy, Adm. Vladimir Kuroyedov,
flew to the port to handle the situation. Kuzminykh's family members, including his mother and a
brother, were flown to the site, news reports said. Officials tried to contact the sailor and appealed to him to
surrender, but he was not responding to their calls. Nor has he made any demands, the Defense Ministry said. There has been a rash of mass killings in the Russian armed forces, which are plagued by brutal living conditions. The military is chronically short of money because of the country's economic problems and hazing of servicemen is a major problem.

Received 8/23/98

Here is some news on the status of things in the VS community for your forum
area.

For those of you who might not have heard the sad news yet, the VS AW is
quickly becoming an endangered species. The Shamrocks of VS-41 recently
graduated their final Senso class. These new Senso's will not go to fleet
squadrons unfortunately. All were sent to new pipelines for re-training in
another platform. The staff instructors will remain onboard until the NMP/BA
goes to Zero and then will transfer out. Most folks think this will happen
around 1 October 98. For those of you who are not close to this battle, the
removal of AW's, the deletion of ASW and Mining as primary mission's are
proposals initiated by the Viking community to create enough surplus money
within their budget allocation to fund critical programs to keep the airplane
alive.

As many of you may know the LDO/CWO billets have been under scrutiny as well.
Two weeks ago the SEA CONTROL wings got word via the detailers and CDR Roy
Peterson that the LDO/CWO were being cut. With some fancy foot work on the
wings and CDR Peterson's part we managed to avoid the axe for now. Keep in
mind that this save appears to be very temporary in nature. The East coast
wing has gone on public record saying that they want LDO/CWO billets to stay
and will give up the NFO billet to make it happen. The West coast wing is
studying the issue before they make any command decisions. Some of their
concerns include the fact that we won't be growing any VS experienced Senso's
to select for LDO/CWO in the future. Also what do we gain by giving up
another NFO billet and keeping the LDO/CWO billet? What do we lose? What
benefit does a new LDO/CWO with absolutely no VS experience bring to the
squadron? These are all legitimate concerns that show a complete ignorance of
who we are and what we can do!

From my perspective we need to start taking some action to stay alive in the
VS community. First and foremost we need to very visably expand our
horizons. By this I mean the VS community needs to see and know that we are
much more than just ASW experts. Our job title, Aviation Operations, says it
all. We should be the corporate knowledge and memory, the one who makes
things happen, the mainstay of squadron operations. Our counterparts in
Maintenance are key figures in all aspects of the daily maintenance effort.
We should be their equivalent in the Operations arena. We need to work our
way beyond just being the USW and Aircrew Division Officer and performing our
way into the Asst Ops or Training Officer jobs. The squadron CO's and XO's
need to feel like they can't live without us and that we make their squadrons
a much better and more effective war machine.

We also need to break out of the "ASW only" stereotype. All of us know ASW
without a doubt, but we also are very proficient in the areas of Tactics,
Mission Planning, Weapons, Non-Acoustic Sensors, Intel, Command and Control
etc. We need to get this expertise out in the open and put it to work for the
squadrons.

Lastly we need to be more than commissioned senso's in the airplane. We all
need to get NATOPS qualified as TACCO's! I won't be training anymore
LDO/CWO's as Senso's in the FRS. I am putting together a seperate LDO/CWO
course that will have it's own CIN and focus on the TACCO position. From here
on everybody will leave the FRS with a TACCO NATOPS qual.

Well thats my two cents from the FRS. I'll keep the forum posted on the
changes as they happen. If you have any questions/comments you can e-mail me
at BKenney398@aol.com or via landline at DSN 735-7196.

{position filled}

HELP WANTED!!!!!!!

USS DWIGHT D EISENHOWER is looking for a 632X/732X. CV experience is preferred...any warm body will do. Room, board, and entertainment provided. LIMDU personnel need NOT apply!

anonymous

Loss of Billets:

It seems we resently lost a number of billets. Remember, anytime we transfer or allow another designature to take over our billets, we run the risk of losing that position (for our community). Once someone other than a 632X/732X is there, it then becomes easy to convert that billet. We must be careful, and take care of our own!

It is our responsibility to help our community grow. If you are holding a position that is not a 632X/732X billet, then try to make it one. We must strive to find new billets so our community may flourish and not die on the vine!

John D. Miltenberger